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Date:	12/20/99 8:39:05 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
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Traveller-digest     Monday, December 20 1999     Volume 1999 : Number 1539<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Save the whales<BR>
Re: Mailing Info <BR>
Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
Reminders<BR>
Re: OT Benedict Arnold<BR>
Re: Canonicy of YTU <BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: Elvis has left the planet! <BR>
Re:  Scumbags<BR>
Re: Vanishing Wetlands...<BR>
Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
Re: United States<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: technology advances<BR>
Re: Mailing Info<BR>
Re: Comodes<BR>
Re: [OT] War of 1812 (and dragging back to topic)<BR>
United States Territory<BR>
Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement <BR>
WAY OT... Are Kenji and Kiri sane?<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:15:30 +1000<BR>
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
Subject: Save the whales<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message ----- <BR>
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 10:28 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions<BR>
> <BR>
> OBTrav: A low-tech world gets incorperated into the Imperium, who tells<BR>
>         the natives that they have to stop killing those big sea mammals,<BR>
>         cause their sentient. The locals refuse stating that it is their<BR>
>         source of food and a long standing tradition.<BR>
<BR>
Wasn't this covered in one of the later/last adventures from GDW?<BR>
<BR>
- -- The Roc<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:57:08 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Mailing Info <BR>
<BR>
> No.<BR>
> <BR>
> XTML was a short-lived schism of the main TML when a bunch of CT grognards<BR>
> decided they didn't want to play with us TNE heathens anymore and formed<BR>
> their own list, which soon consisted of about 80% crossposts from the main<BR>
> list; traffic soon dwindled to pretty much nothing. It died along with the<BR>
> unfortunate demise of GDW,  and was folded back into this list at the<BR>
> time of the Ramshackle Edition (T4).<BR>
<BR>
I've got the archives for it.  Interesting stuff in there.<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:34:42 -0500<BR>
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Marooned (MegaT)<BR>
<BR>
Was written:<BR>
<BR>
>Food is the real problem. There's damn little living up there in the<BR>
>winter. And if you aren't near the ocean, make that *nothing*.<BR>
><BR>
>> BTW, Polar bears are notorious for hunting anything that moves on the<BR>
>> ice, including man, almost always from ambush.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In light of the above if you are in that situation and you slay the polar<BR>
bear rather than the converse be advised not to eat its liver.   That is the<BR>
one, albeit practically useless tidbit, I gleaned many years ago from the US<BR>
Army Survival Guide which continues to remain in my brain.  Why you ask?<BR>
To much vitamin A... no not in my brain... in the liver.<BR>
<BR>
Dan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:02:44 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Reminders<BR>
<BR>
>From: "Swordy \(Colin Michael\)"<BR>
><swordworlder@clinic.net><BR>
<BR>
>- - Citizens of the TML is another great resource <BR>
>that lists not only the names, but a little bit about<BR>
<BR>
>any  member of the Traveller Mailing List who cares <BR>
>to be listed.  Wondering who just flamed you of just <BR>
>wrote in your defense?  Check the list to listing to <BR>
>see if you can find out more about where he or she is<BR>
<BR>
>coming from.<BR>
>http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html<BR>
<BR>
My bio on that list is three years old, so I'm going<BR>
to update it.  Thanks for the reminder!<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:06:30 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT Benedict Arnold<BR>
<BR>
>From: pould@netcom.caSubject: Re: OT<BR>
<BR>
>One question to my US friends, it has to do with<BR>
>Benedict Arnold.  I seem to recall reading somewhere <BR>
>that when the US government issued a stamp using a <BR>
>famous painting on it, they "brushed out" Benedict <BR>
>Arnold, who was in the original painting.<BR>
<BR>
Comrade, you are talking like opportunist.  That could<BR>
never happen in United States.  Never.  Forget it.  I<BR>
mean it.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:07:19 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Canonicy of YTU <BR>
<BR>
> > Ian Ferguson wrote:<BR>
> > > Without meaning to throw sparks on the dry tinder of<BR>
> > > the canon issue, how many of you follow the official<BR>
> > > rules and canon?  I use most of the CT rules that I<BR>
> > > know of, and don't sweat the ones I don't know.  MTU<BR>
> > > has numerous tweeks and house rules, and many facets<BR>
> > > of the Imperium might make other cringe.  What is the<BR>
> > > distribution of philosophies out there?<BR>
> <BR>
> Rules: MT-variant & light... plus anything I like from any game <BR>
> system. <BR>
> <BR>
> Canon: It might be canon... I set it beyond charted space, but the <BR>
> universe the players left behind is supposed to be the MT one... only <BR>
> they still don't know how much time they were hibernated, so it might <BR>
> be the TNE one... or a different one. Maybe one day they'll find out. <BR>
> <g><BR>
<BR>
CATN Rules: CT with some MT grafted onto it.  Mebbe in the process of <BR>
converting it to TNE (the more I study those rules the better I like 'em, <BR>
*EXCEPT* for combat!!!).  Some house rules.<BR>
<BR>
CATN Canonocity: Variable.  Setting is Reavers' Deep, outside of the <BR>
Imperium, during the Rebellion.  Soem things happened differently...  <grin><BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:11:41 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
>From: JFZeigler@aol.comSubject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
>gmgoffin@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
>>  India?<BR>
><BR>
>Nope.  I don't think you can equate the Harappan<BR>
>culture with modern India or any other nation-state <BR>
>of today.  Of course, the continuity between<BR>
>Middle Kingdom Egypt and present-day Egypt, or <BR>
>between Shang Dynasty China and present-day China, is<BR>
<BR>
>pretty tenuous too.  Which is my point anyway :-).<BR>
<BR>
Thinking about things like this gives one a little<BR>
perspective on the Zhodani Consulate being constantly<BR>
in being for 8,000 or so years, or the Ziru Sirka<BR>
maintaining one civilization and government for<BR>
10,000+ years.  No wonder they called it the<BR>
Ramshackle Empire.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:10:37 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Elvis has left the planet! <BR>
<BR>
> On 12/14/1999 22:45, cos 90 wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> >>> If you do, make sure you include an encounter with missionaries from the<BR>
> >>> Church of Elvis. A Vegas would would attract them like moths to the porch<BR>
> >>> light.<BR>
> >> <BR>
> >> HEY! The last time I played in any Traveller universe was eight years ago<BR>
> >> and my character was kidnapped while on liberty by members of the Church of<BR>
> >> Elvis! That was NOT a pleasant experience. :) :)<BR>
> > <BR>
> > Do tell. It might make an interesting encounter / adventure for my own<BR>
> > current campaign. :)<BR>
> <BR>
> My character was an Imperial Naval Officer and some of his interests<BR>
> involved ancient Terran music. When he approached a group of Elvis<BR>
> neophytes, they bopped him upside the head and took him away. The next thing<BR>
> he knew he was exposed to constant Elvis music videos, gyrating men and<BR>
> women, and he couldn't get away. Three weeks later an Imperial commando team<BR>
> rescued my character and the Navy sent him to a deprogramming camp. This all<BR>
> happened during character generation! As a result, he lost the skill<BR>
> opportunities for one year!<BR>
<BR>
I've got a character who's a lapsed member of the Solomani Catholic Church whose patron saint is St Elvis.  Still has his medal, still wears it.  But he hasn't sang 'Blue Swede Shoes' in over 20 years.  His name?  Romli Issak Elvis Hamlin.<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:21:13 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re:  Scumbags<BR>
<BR>
>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au><BR>
>Subject: Scumbags (was: chicks with guns, and 3I<BR>
>porno)<BR>
<BR>
>>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
>> I would suggest that the fact that you're searching<BR>
>the boot of someone's car means that there's a good <BR>
>chance he's a scumbag, gun or no gun. <BR>
<BR>
Well, they say that at least in some neighborhoods of<BR>
Glisten, the most likely reason a cop is searching the<BR>
boot of a grav speeder is the combination of (1) the<BR>
driver is a vargr, (2) the grav speeder is too new or<BR>
expensive or both, and/or (3) it's not a vargr<BR>
neighborhood.  I'm not saying it happens, or that it<BR>
happens here, but I've heard it could happen on<BR>
Glisten.  Or Jesedipere.  Or Mora.  Or Regina.  Or<BR>
Jewell.  Or even Efate.  <BR>
<BR>
>The point was that finding said weapon added greatly <BR>
>to the chance of a successful prosecution because the<BR>
<BR>
>police knew the scumbag had an illegal weapon, and <BR>
>the jury had an inkling that the "defendant" couldn't<BR>
<BR>
>be all that honest if he had an illegal weapon.<BR>
<BR>
It depends on the standards for prosecution and<BR>
conviction.  Can one be convicted of being a bad<BR>
person, or should one only be subject to conviction<BR>
for violating a specific law?  It depends on where you<BR>
are.<BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.<BR>
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:01:20 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Vanishing Wetlands...<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> TNS 232-1002, Terra/Sol<BR>
><BR>
> "Imperial Forces made another stride towards victory today with the capture<BR>
> of the San Francisco Valley region.  The picturesque area, famous for its<BR>
> mountainous original settlement called "the old 47" by locals, was taken in<BR>
> a determined series of attacks by the rebuilt 85th Grav Tank Army.<BR>
><BR>
> Troops of the 3412th Lift Infantry Brigade have set up defensive screens to<BR>
> the east of the Oaktown Highlands.  Local reaction is muted, except in the<BR>
> eastern parts of the area where troops have been trouble by raiders.<BR>
><BR>
> Solomani troops are dug in around the base of Mt. Farallon, but are<BR>
> expected to fall with the week."<BR>
><BR>
> The previous is probably meaningless to the non-SFers, but it is a nice<BR>
> lead in for an article in today's Chronicle.  Evidently, the Bay is a<BR>
> transitory feature.  In fact, it's an aberration!<BR>
><BR>
> Makes you wonder what else will have changed by the time of Traveller...<BR>
<BR>
Just consider that given the faults all thru California, and the 3000+<BR>
year timescale, expect that anything west of the main fault lines could<BR>
be as much as a few *miles* north of where it is now. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:04:39 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Mars Exploration<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>  This problem is endemic in the space industry; the shuttle was <BR>
> _supposed_ to be exactly what you describe, it just turned out that the <BR>
> technology of the time was not up to the task of building a fully reusable <BR>
> SSTO.<BR>
<BR>
It *was* up to it. It's just that Congress declined to fund it *and*<BR>
forced NASA to build a much bigger orbiter than they wanted to. The<BR>
huge size is because they has to commit to being able to boost things<BR>
like the KH series satellites to keep the funding. Then the military<BR>
turned around and dropped their interest in using the shuttle for most<BR>
missions anyway. <BR>
<BR>
If it hadn't been for the military satellite launch requirements, the<BR>
Shuttle cargo by would be anywhere from 2/3rd to 1/2 the size it<BR>
currently is, and the rest of the shuttle would be smaller too. <BR>
<BR>
> My basic argument here is that you seem to believe that cheap space<BR>
> travel is easy, with just a little bit of research, and that if<BR>
> corporations/nasa/ whatever would just recognize this, the problem<BR>
> would be solved. <BR>
<BR>
No, we claim that it's nowhere near as hard as NASA makes it look. And<BR>
that designing more robust launchers will lower costs *drastricly* even<BR>
if they have lower payload fractions. What makes Shuttle flights so<BR>
expensive *isn't* the cost of the fuel! And it isn't even the cost of<BR>
the vehicle or the parts that need replacing after every flight. It's<BR>
the salaries of the *huge* number of people involved in the process.<BR>
<BR>
> I claim that cheap space travel is a fundamentally hard problem,<BR>
> which will require application of large amounts of time, money, and<BR>
> research.<BR>
<BR>
Which is what was said about space flight *in general* years back. <BR>
<BR>
True, neither is *easy*. But they aren't *nearly* as hard as people<BR>
think.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In addition, while I am not awed by NASAs performance, I haven't<BR>
> exactly been impressed by most of its competition either.<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind that many design that deserved to at least get tested has<BR>
been shot down when would be investors asked NASA about it. Naturally<BR>
they were told the idea was worthless. This isn't even necessarily<BR>
deliberate bias, just the *natural* tendency to think "if it was a good<BR>
idea, we'd be using it".<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:55:25 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: United States<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> In a message dated 12/20/99 8:16:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:<BR>
><BR>
>> That was the *height* of the Assyrian Empire IIRC.<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  The Minoan Empire is a possibilty, but I think the eruption of Thera<BR>
>>  wiped them out centuries earlier.<BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  The Phoenicians might be around. <BR>
>>  <BR>
>>  Other "countries" to consider are things like the Anasazi in the<BR>
>>  Southwest, the folks who built Ankor Wat in Cambodia, etc. <BR>
><BR>
> Point is, *none* of those cultures have lasted with any degree of continuity<BR>
> to the present day.  Nor will today's nation-states last 3,500 years into<BR>
> any reasonably-imaginable future.<BR>
<BR>
That *was* my point. The post I was responding to read as if Egypt,<BR>
China, and India were the *only* "countries" around back then. <BR>
<BR>
And besides *listing* all these *dead* "nations" helps get the idea<BR>
across. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:47:43 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Kiri posted:<BR>
>If Kenji and I are grownups, that is a truly frightening thought.<BR>
><BR>
>kirichan yori  =)<BR>
<BR>
Hmmm, so what does Yori (Regina/SM) mean in Japanese?<BR>
<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:54:21 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Kelly St.Clair wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Which reminds me, the Spofulams never did answer my question: is a meson<BR>
> >micro-explosion more of a "thuddy" or a "stingy" thing???  <BR>
> <BR>
> What it is is a REALLY F***ING BAD IDEA.<BR>
> <BR>
> (Note that I chose my expletive quite deliberately.  Remember the first<BR>
> rule: Play Safe.  Meson micro-guns do not fit under "safe", IMO.)<BR>
<BR>
I'll take your previous silence as evidence that you consider the PMPP<BR>
"safe", then?<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:00:58 -0500 (EST)<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> > (Note that I chose my expletive quite deliberately.  Remember the first<BR>
> > rule: Play Safe.  Meson micro-guns do not fit under "safe", IMO.)<BR>
> > <BR>
> LOL, Safe Sane and Consensual...<BR>
> <BR>
> But the sane part rules anything that either I or Kenji would do right out<BR>
> to begin with, Kelly.<BR>
<BR>
I beg yer *pardon*!  Even under the new, improved DSM-IV, I'm not<BR>
technically nuts.  It's a close scrape, sure, but I'm *just fine*<BR>
according to the *pros*.  The *authorities*.  I mean, I even dropped the<BR>
whole "gauss amphibian rifle" project when I asked one of my dorm mates to<BR>
ask Steven J. Gould how much one of those really, really poisonous tree<BR>
frogs weighs and what its volume is, and got looked at funny.  Because I<BR>
*care* about normalcy.  Yessiree.<BR>
<BR>
Kenji<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 19:56:54 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: Re: technology advances<BR>
<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>Kiri posted:<BR>
>>If Kenji and I are grownups, that is a truly frightening thought.<BR>
>><BR>
>>kirichan yori  =)<BR>
><BR>
>Hmmm, so what does Yori (Regina/SM) mean in Japanese?<BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
In this case, just "from".  =)<BR>
<BR>
Kiri<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan         93!      Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's<BR>
a deity out here who digs it.  You can respect and love your darkest side,<BR>
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical.  It's all about giving<BR>
yourself permission."<BR>
                                     -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:04:50 -0600<BR>
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Mailing Info<BR>
<BR>
On 12/20/99 at 07:57 PM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com> said:<BR>
<BR>
>> No.<BR>
>> <BR>
>> XTML was a short-lived schism of the main TML when a bunch of CT grognards<BR>
>> decided they didn't want to play with us TNE heathens anymore and formed<BR>
>> their own list, which soon consisted of about 80% crossposts from the main<BR>
>> list; traffic soon dwindled to pretty much nothing. It died along with the<BR>
>> unfortunate demise of GDW,  and was folded back into this list at the<BR>
>> time of the Ramshackle Edition (T4).<BR>
<BR>
>I've got the archives for it.  Interesting stuff in there.<BR>
<BR>
If anyone wants to start another list, then there's always onelist.com, I<BR>
don't think we need one for just CT, but YMMV.<BR>
<BR>
Eris<BR>
- -- <BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
eris@pcola.gulf.net    using MR/2 ICE #245<BR>
- -----------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 04:11:43 GMT<BR>
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)<BR>
Subject: Re: Comodes<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:22:51 -0500, "DaveShayne"<BR>
<daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>>Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:30:59 -0900<BR>
>>From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
>>Subject: [none]<BR>
>><BR>
>>><< Still - it does open up a whole new can (sorry) of worms.  How do the<BR>
>>> various races...um...well...go? >><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>We had Glenn Grant execute a drawing illustrating this dilemma for the<BR>
>>>upcoming Starports book. Otherwise we dodge the question. Like sex and<BR>
>>>religion, this is left up to the individual perver...er...pervects to<BR>
>decide.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>>LKW<BR>
>><BR>
>>It was quite apparent from the applicable source materials that Ahz used<BR>
>>the same commodes as Skeve, Tanada, Guido, and Nunzio.<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>This thread is giving me a headache....<BR>
>    Thanks for the Asprin.<BR>
><BR>
I think we should stop being Phulish.<BR>
<BR>
================================================================================<BR>
- - Jeff Peterson                                             j_pete@bellsouth.net<BR>
<BR>
"Every citizen [should] be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and  the<BR>
 Romans, and must be that of every free state."   -Thomas Jefferson<BR>
<BR>
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833<BR>
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-<BR>
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++<BR>
NOG #74  AirStar Nova 700<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 22:22:16 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: [OT] War of 1812 (and dragging back to topic)<BR>
<BR>
Kyle Schuant wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> Who won, everybody's debating. Well, by Clausewitz's<BR>
> definition of victory as "making the enemy do your<BR>
> will," a sensible government will have a set of goals,<BR>
> presumably some more important than others. Since the<BR>
> USA invaded Canada, Canada's goal was simple: survive<BR>
> as a nation. That is a greater victory than avoiding<BR>
> having your citizens press-ganged into someone else's<BR>
> navy, isn't it? So both sides achieved their<BR>
> objectives, both sides won; but Canada's victory was<BR>
> the greater, since it was a more important issue,<BR>
> surely.<BR>
> <BR>
Except that Canada was 50 or so years away from being a nation.  Canada,<BR>
as such, had _no_ victory, since there was no nation-state of Canada to<BR>
win or lose a war.<BR>
<BR>
For further commentary on the War of 1812, see:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.optonline.com/comptons/ceo/05078_A.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7517/extras/timeline.html<BR>
<BR>
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/marit.htm  (Note:  You'll have to scroll<BR>
down to find the applicable links)<BR>
<BR>
A Napoleonic Era timeline can be found at:<BR>
<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/5691/History/Documents/napoleon.html<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
ObTrav:  Well, the Fifth Frontier War could be considered as the<BR>
Napoleonic Wars in reverse (the "coalition" in the FFW was forced to<BR>
settle for the status quo ante bellum, while the various coalitions<BR>
finally defeated Napoleon).<BR>
<BR>
Of course, the Outworld Coalition has not yet conceded final defeat....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 23:31:49 -0500<BR>
From: "Robert Conley" <estar@toolcity.net><BR>
Subject: United States Territory<BR>
<BR>
Let me rephrase my question,<BR>
<BR>
In the year 1100 (57th century) what is the contineal US like and how it got<BR>
that way. I know the few canon references to terra but using that as a<BR>
framework what would region formerly inhabited by the US look like? By<BR>
speculating on this we can also develop other nation-regions as well.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 21:31:55 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: [BITS] Millennium Announcement <BR>
<BR>
> > >> BITS - British Isles Traveller Support<BR>
> > >> http://www.bits.org.uk/<BR>
> > >><BR>
> > >> "Something wonderful is going to happen."<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Then Douglas E. Berry replied:<BR>
> > ><BR>
> > > "My God, it's full of penguins..."<BR>
> ><BR>
> > Hmmmm...lemme guess...."2001: A Linux Odyssey"!!<BR>
> <BR>
> "2010: The Year Windows Stops Crashing"<BR>
> <BR>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>
> Sorry Keven, We don't do Fantasy on this list... :)<BR>
<BR>
You're right.  My apologies.<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 20:27:34 -0800<BR>
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com><BR>
Subject: WAY OT... Are Kenji and Kiri sane?<BR>
<BR>
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu><BR>
<BR>
><BR>
>On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Quoth Kelly:<BR>
>>> (Note that I chose my expletive quite deliberately.  Remember the first<BR>
rule: Play Safe.  Meson micro-guns do not fit under "safe", IMO.)<BR>
>>><BR>
>> LOL, Safe Sane and Consensual...  But the sane part rules anything that<BR>
either I or Kenji would do right out to begin with, Kelly.<BR>
><BR>
>I beg yer *pardon*!  Even under the new, improved DSM-IV, I'm not<BR>
technically nuts.<BR>
><BR>
I'll have to check that one out (since I work at a med school, I'm sure I<BR>
can get my hands on a copy).  I wonder if I am technically nuts?  Does ADD<BR>
count as nuts?  Because I definitely have that.<BR>
<BR>
Even so, since the original post was referring to things that I might do to<BR>
you which had you considering relocation...  since *I* may not be sane, it<BR>
is still not playing sane.  =)<BR>
<BR>
>It's a close scrape, sure, but I'm *just fine* according to the *pros*.<BR>
The *authorities*.  I mean, I even dropped the whole "gauss amphibian rifle"<BR>
project when I asked one of my dormmates to ask Steven J. Gould how much one<BR>
of those really, really poisonous tree frogs weighs and what its volume is,<BR>
and got looked at funny.  Because I *care* about normalcy.  Yessiree.<BR>
><BR>
LOL, yeah right.  They think I am totally whacked around here and I like it<BR>
that way.  Just remember Kenji-kun, if they think that you're crazy you can<BR>
get away with a lot of shit...<BR>
<BR>
Well at least this is more fun than filling out nengajo (New Year's cards...<BR>
one Japanese tradition that makes so much sense... no one is EVER offended<BR>
by being wished a Happy New Year... not even the staunchest atheist, nor the<BR>
most orthodox Jew, nor the most fanatical fundamentalist Christian or<BR>
Muslim, nor the most incredibly out there Wiccan!  Although my Chinese<BR>
friends so often remind me that we have jumped the gun by about 2 months.<BR>
Phbbft.)<BR>
<BR>
Back to the cards, Kiri  =)<BR>
<BR>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>
Kiri Aradia Morgan      93!     Thou Art God...<BR>
tiamat@tsoft.com<BR>
<BR>
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is<BR>
sacred somewhere.  There's a deity out there who digs it.  You can respect<BR>
and love your darkest side, disposing of only what is obsolete or<BR>
impractical.  It's all about giving yourself permission."<BR>
                             -- Jack Darkhand<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1539<BR>
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